On drums...

_________________
Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

I never have much of a dog in the hunt, because I don't care whether I'm a jazz drummer or not. What I care about is whether what I am playing lends itself to the music. There are times when I think I am playing jazz, because things flow along in an unexpected way, where longer phrasings begins to work beyond the borders of meter and measure. There are times I think I am trying to apply to jazz what I know about rock, and things feel a bit wooden.

Rock drummers are like the red coated British troops who decimated the enemy by organization and discipline. Jazz drummers are like the guys who hid in the woods and picked them off; they had to be quick about it and disappear before the organization could overwhelm them.

Since you quoted me, Cliff, let me clarify your interpretation of what I said: I wasn't speaking in the present tense about "imitating being cool." That was a remark about how I once viewed the basic jazz ride pattern. I saw it as a caricature, and produced silly body postures to accompany it.

Although, jazz does have about it a certain pretension to coolness, now that I think of it.

_________________
Gregory

When it comes to me - I think that I function in a relatively simple environment, with clear rules...

I've always considered jazz as an art form, not just music. It's got great to do with inventiveness, attitude, artistic expression, form and expression. A great jazz drum solo, for me, was always the one where the drummer rides that fine line between melody and technique, between own expression and respect towards the role models.
That attitude in music in general is what I enjoy most, since I love music above all, and then DRUMS as an instrument.


Unfortunately, I have managed to develop that love for music and drums into actually playing them at a later stage in life, where other chores in life were "first in line". And that situation "killed" my chance for a formal drum education.
So, I decided to have a life long love and focused my passion towards drums and drumming. I must admit, I was fortunate enough to start my jazz journey (because jazz here was a very underrated category) in 2006, and people say I've come a long way in that direction. But, I'm fully aware that I have miles to go on that road. How far I'll get is up to me I guess - the good thing is that there are no car behind me...

So, I can proudly say I'm a jazz lover and a passionate drummer - but not a jazz drummer.
But I can't classify myself as a rock drummer either - simply because I NEVER had that dream that I'll be touring around the world and playing in front of thousands of people.
Chicks were not what got me into drumming - it was that simple and pure love towards music.

Cliff - Your stand is totally correct - "So, am I a jazz drummer? Yes, I am on that journey. Do I meet enough other criteria for someone else to agree? Don’t know, don’t care."
Everyone who plays with this attitude obviously plays - from the heart!!!

Sure there are tons of youngsters (and several here, in my country) who seriously kick ass - but still there's nothing to worry about, or to be envy about.

I doubt the love and passion will ever die - and what others think of me is irrelevant. My journey is after all - MINE!!!

_________________
Goki - short from Goran

Let the good drums roll!!!

Jazz....
Smoke filled room, saxaphone and a girl sounding like shes the one that did all the smoking.
She sounds like it will be her last night on earth and strangely, everyone knows it.

In my younger day, it was the stuff you heard on elevators. And in the dentist chair, until they started to hire young dental assistants

A lot of typing in this thread. And a lot of intelligent thoughts and comments.
Let me see if I can't fix that. Cuz you folks always think too much

I never listened to a lick of jazz, except of course in one of the above scenarios, but then I didn't actually listen. It was like lifes background music. You could hear it when everything else was quiet.
I still cannot do the smoke filled room stuff. And this will probably be an insult to jazz guys but, I actually bought a "jazz" cd a few years back. It was weckls band. I didn't even consider it jazz so to speak. Sorta like there are oldies and then there are "Oldies". "Don't insult the 50's music by calling the 60's oldies".
I would call weckls album "rock jazz". I liked a few songs on it a lot.
Nowadays, when I think of jazz drummers, I think "right hand swing, left hand ghosting". And it seems jazz drummers are really up on their rudiments. Like they were whacked across the hand with a ruler if they didn't practice their rudiments day in and day out. By someone dressed like Clark Kent. Who incidentally, actually did turn into Superman at the late night jazz gig.
I think in a nut shell, at least at this point in my life, I will never be a jazz drummer. Solely because I think we are what we like to listen to. I don't like to listen to jazz.
And I think the reason for that, is their lyrics, vocals and story lines suk. Even when there is no vocals, which is frequently the case. Those things always come first for me. Aside from that weckl disc, I don't think I have ever bought a piece of music because of the piece of music.
I have to hear a great vocal before I can go any further and jazz music is just not conducive to vocals.
This is also the reason why I'm going through this metamorphosis, this stuck zone, in what I really want to be playing.
Not so much the message itself in rock or pop, just tired of the message all together.
I might try to start an acid jazz band

I don't think Jazz drummers are any kind of special or elite drummers. If I wanted to play jazz, I would.
Drumming is after all, all about making your limbs do things they don't really want to do. Yeah yeah yeah, don't give me any of that crap about feel and how music is universal and speaks to the soul

As far as David's video, if I eliminate the few nuances I already mentioned in the other thread on sound quality and such, I can see he is a very good drummer. I see funk in that video bordering on breaking into the jazz world. His right hand can swing and his left hand can ghost. And It's not too late to turn back.

Kelly wrote:
Jazz....
Smoke filled room, saxaphone and a girl sounding like shes the one that did all the smoking.

A little late for the "smoke filled room..." It's a damn shame, too.

Kelly wrote:

In my younger day, it was the stuff you heard on elevators.

You got on some mighty sophisticated elevators in New Jersey! Now, of course, it's all classic rock. You see how things go downhill?

Kelly wrote:
it seems jazz drummers are really up on their rudiments. Like they were whacked across the hand with a ruler if they didn't practice their rudiments day in and day out. .

You mean the guys that play like Weckl? Who clearly have a problem spelling their own names?

Kelly wrote:
I think in a nut shell...

There may be a twelve step program for that...

Kelly wrote:

As far as David's video...His right hand can swing and his left hand can ghost. And It's not too late to turn back.

_________________
Gregory

This is an interesting thread. I hope my comments on the video thread didn't open an old rotten can of worms!

Anyway, when I said "I'm quite a snob when it comes to jazz, and unless I played jazz for a living or at least taught and played jazz gigs weekly, I would never call myself a jazz drummer" I guess I didn't represent my true feelings very articulately. I certainly know fabulous jazz drummers who don't make a living playing music. And Lord knows making any money at all by creating art of any kind is a crap shoot at best!

However, having (a) studied jazz in an academic environment for awhile, and (b) played jazz with some great players who could play rings around me, and (c) watched at close range the way that someone with great facility can communicate through his/her instrument in a jazz environment, has helped define my feelings in this area.

The concept of jazz is fundamentally built around improvisation. And I think to be able to improvise on your instrument not only takes some amount (a lot?) of technique, but it takes an understanding of song form, tension and release, good time and rhythmic creativity, etc. But jazz is not just about improvising. If you are talking about swing-based music, the quarter note pulse on the ride cymbal needs to have a certain "forward motion" feel to it in order for the music to "swing" IMO. If you can't achieve this (and this is no small feat), then the "jazz" feel just doesn't groove for me. And if the music/groove doesn't feel good, then it gives me a visceral stomach ache. The moral of this tedious story is that, to me, there is no harder music for me to listen to than jazz that is not swinging, or "bad" jazz. A very mediocre rock band or lounge act, even with a sloppy drummer or out of tune voices/instruments, is much easier for me to tolerate for some reason.

Perhaps this is because I have seen first-hand from others and from my own practicing, the incredible dedication that goes into having the technical facility to just play the music so it is at a minimum grooving and feels good, even if it is not really creative improvising. And this is nothing to speak of the variety of latin/world styles that are incorporated into jazz like bossa nova, samba, afro-cuban, etc. which need to become part of your arsenal and which require very different feels.

And to better refine what I originally meant about my own playing, to even feel comfortable playing a "standards" jazz gig, I need to practice playing jazz for several hours
the week before, just to get that feel back in my limbs. I don't need to do this with rock, funk or blues. This is probably because I came to know jazz only after I'd played back-beat music for 10 years and while I've worked hard at it periodically over the years, it's very much like trying to speak a second language that you ignore for too long and then need to get reacquainted with.

When Kelly said "I don't think Jazz drummers are any kind of special or elite drummers" I might have to disagree with him somewhat on a big-picture level. While there are incredible drummers in all facets of music, I think that most drummers who are "good" jazz drummers can also play most other styles very convincingly if needed (rock, soul, funk, blues, reggae etc.) However, many good (even great) rock drummers don't know how or have the technique to play a decent swing, blues or reggae groove. And maybe that doesn't mean anything... they never wanted to and will never have to. But to me, being able to play and internalize many different grooves and musical styles informs your musical expression and allows you to draw on all that for creativity. And that puts the "good jazz drummer" a little higher in my book.

- D.

Hey David,

No worries at all in regards to '...an old rotten can of worms...'

I think it is an interesting discussion that was, unfortunately, aborted a while back due to a set of circumstances that I don't expect will develop again.

I had somewhat assumed that the ideas you have articulated here were behind your original comments, and I think in most respects, we are saying much the same.

Simply, it amounts to where your heart is. The guy that finishes last in a marathon is still a runner.

_________________
Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

Hey Kelly,

Some of the books that I have most enjoyed reading have had dogs in them, but requiring the presence of one can become a serious limitation on what I am willing to read. I agree with you that there is a limited amount of jazz vocals that I really enjoy, but we differ on what draws us to listen to music. There are sounds, textures, etc., that I will not listen to, but nothing that is required to be present in order for me to listen.

Like you, I have been in a lot of elevators in the tri-state area and you gotta trust me that what you were hearing there wasn’t jazz…

…especially if it featured vocals!

No one is going to convince you to like or even listen to music you don’t like, but you need to allow for the possibility that if NJ elevators and one Dave Weckl album are your frame of reference, that there is more out there to be exposed to that could be considered jazz.

I know you are in a transition period, as you alluded to in your post. There is a freer, more complex, challenging format out there somewhere that does not require saxophone, female vocalists committing suicide by cigarette or vertical travel.

_________________
Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

Or worse yet, squishing her butt about on a stool in order to distract you from the fact that she can't sing.

_________________
Gregory

Much I agree with, a few things I don't.

Jazz drummers are a class above.....no. It's like the expert pitcher and the expert catcher. They both can surely do good at what the other does but they each chose what they wanted to be great at.
It's like asking if the Pitcher can pitch better than the catcher can catch.
I can appreciate the admiration the aspiring catcher has for one of his hero's, but I don't want to be a catcher.

To think a jazz drummer can reach some peak that, lets say a rock drummer doesn't reach just can't be true. It only means the one observing hasn't seen or taking rock drumming to that level. When I say this I think of Virgil Donati, who has taken the whole concept of rock drumming to a whole new level. Not many can even see the bar he has raised it to.
But....you have to like the type, style...etc. Also, when I think of him, I don't particular care for his band, the type of music, but don't try to say he can't play/feel music. That's always been a silly notion.

As far as Jazz drummers being able to play more types of music, that's a stretch also. Attempts at crossover muscians is usually a fail. There are way too many levels to any type of music than just merely playing it.
I surely dislike jazz drummers taking on a rock roll. And vise versa.
I think of Steve Smith. He's dubbed the worlds most versatile drummer. Steve Smith has played in a rock band, fusion/funk band and a jazz band. It's clear to me though, Steve Smith is a much better jazz drummer than he is a rock drummer. Sufficient in all but his home/training is clearly jazz.

LOL...Cliff....my ear is always open. Things like this "catch" you, you don't have to search for them. I'll know it when I hear it. But don't expect me tuned into 107.2 Smooth Nights or purchasing the complete DVD set of music for an "Intimate evening" searching for it.