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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Over at the "other" place the debate rages on:
http://www.sonormuseum.com/forum/viewto ... =13&t=8206


Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:30 pm 
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The split argument takes place on either side of the central issue, and the camp attempting to minimize Sonor's action mistake the ethical/moral issue for one of personal preference, which is a fairly common position in the current age.

There's little more to be said than that Sonor has lied by omission. I can witness to that. I asked Shane about the Classix rosewood, and he referred me to Hohner. I spoke to Jerry Goldenson at Hohner, who reassured me that rosewood was indeed real, and that all the other "Natural" veneers were real, but that the "Stains" were engineered. I asked how could that be, when bird's eye maple was more regular than nature produced. He said he wasn't sure about the maple, and wrote the following letter to Sonor, to which I was copied:


Quote:
On Jan 25, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Jerry Goldenson wrote:

Dear Mr. Schulz,

I have a customer, Gregory Merrick, which has very detailed questions about the origins of our veneers and the differences between the wood veneers and composite veneers.

We would like to identify which veneers are genuine wood finish and which are composite or manufactured.

Mr. Merrick is a long time fan and supporter of our products and post comments frequently online at the sonormuseum.com. I want to make sure he has absolutely the correct information so we may share this with the legions of fans online!

Thank you in advance for your time and I look forward to your response.

Best regards,

Jerry Goldenson

Sonor USA

1000 Technology Park Drive

Glen Allen, VA 23059-4500


Sonor declined to respond. It's been over three years.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Addressing the issue itself:

Based on input from both the museum discussion and other sources as well, it is my opinion that (i) there may have been deliberate intent to deceive at the point where manufactured veneers were first used in place of genuine natural veneers, (ii) there may have been deliberate intent to avoid the question, after the fact, as to whether any and/or which veneers might be other than genuine natural veneers, (iii) what we hear through certain ‘unofficial’ channels is poorly crafted post-facto rationalization for a perceived deception, and, (iv) that parties involved including, but not limited to those involved in the manufacture and distribution of the product perceive some degree of further exposure, whether legal, reputational or commercial, and rightly so.

Addressing the reaction to the issue:

A wide range of alleged constituents have weighed in, including:

I. Current owners of kits whose veneers are subject to question

II. Past owners, now disinvested, unaffected economically, but intellectually embarrassed that they could have been deceived, and emotionally bruised over by the fact that they may have been deceived

III. Those with no exposure, involvement or ownership at any time of any of the products in question

IV. Those unknowingly involved in purveying a product subsequently called into question

V. Purported lovers of the product, whom in reality, may be more lovers of the company, or whose objectivity may have been discarded in trade for a tarnished halo from a relationship with the company

VI. Any combination of the above

VII. Revisionists who now tell a story about their actual decision process, involvement and experience that differs from accounts posted publicly in the past. Manny owns this category for now taking umbrage to having paid handsomely to be deceived, overlooking extensive prior public posting that the cartage company he worked for bought the kit for the rental market, at an advantageous price befitting their importance in the market. Some time after sudden and unexplained separation from the company, he becomes owner of the used kit (presumably at something even less than his employer bought it for), and subsequently sells it. He loves being a conspiracy victim, and this particular victimization, like the others is fraught with factual problems and with logic leaps that most just can not make.

The motives, degree of involvement and in some cases, the personality of each constituent must be considered. The attempts being made by some to convince others that they have not been mislead seem unfounded, and the folks that concede that deception may have occurred but that the buyer is ‘wrong’ to feel however he may about it show a mouth that is large enough for their brain to have been extracted through.

Thanks for asking, Hale.

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River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Gregory wrote:

There's little more to be said than that Sonor has lied by omission.
.

cliff wrote:
Addressing the issue itself:

Based on input from both the museum discussion and other sources as well, it is my opinion that (i) there may have been deliberate intent to deceive at the point where manufactured veneers were first used in place of genuine natural veneers, (ii) there may have been deliberate intent to avoid the question, after the fact, as to whether any and/or which veneers might be other than genuine natural veneers, (iii) what we hear through certain ‘unofficial’ channels is poorly crafted post-facto rationalization for a perceived deception, and, (iv) that parties involved including, but not limited to those involved in the manufacture and distribution of the product perceive some degree of further exposure, whether legal, reputational or commercial, and rightly so.

Addressing the reaction to the issue:

A wide range of alleged constituents have weighed in, including:

I. Current owners of kits whose veneers are subject to question

II. Past owners, now disinvested, unaffected economically, but intellectually embarrassed that they could have been deceived, and emotionally bruised over by the fact that they may have been deceived

III. Those with no exposure, involvement or ownership at any time of any of the products in question

IV. Those unknowingly involved in purveying a product subsequently called into question

V. Purported lovers of the product, whom in reality, may be more lovers of the company, or whose objectivity may have been discarded in trade for a tarnished halo from a relationship with the company

VI. Any combination of the above

VII. Revisionists who now tell a story about their actual decision process, involvement and experience that differs from accounts posted publicly in the past. Manny owns this category for now taking umbrage to having paid handsomely to be deceived, overlooking extensive prior public posting about the cartage company he worked for having bought the kit for the rental market, at an advantageous price befitting their importance in the market. Some time after sudden and unexplained separation from the company, he becomes owner of the kit (presumably at something even less than his employer bought it for), and subsequently sells it. He loves being a conspiracy victim, and this particular victimization, like the others is fraught with factual problems and with logic leaps that most just can not make.

The motives, degree of involvement and in some cases, the personality of each constituent must be considered. The attempts being made by some to convince others that they have not been mislead seem unfounded, and the folks that concede that deception may have occurred but that the buyer is ‘wrong’ to feel however he may about it show a mouth that is large enough for their brain to have been extracted through.

Thanks for asking, Hale.


I guess there was a lot more to be said. Thanks for laying it out so cogently, Cliff. 8-)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:57 pm 
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Location: lordandkelly@comcast.net
Sigh.....you know what momma said.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Hey guys, seems to me this whole issue of part of a larger debate on how manufacturing is evolving in the late 20th and early 21st century. When is an "american" car a real american car, for example. When is a "natural wood product" really a wood veneer? I damn near laid out the $5000-$6000 on an SQ2 in Rosewood with beech heavy shells, just like the one Kelly and I owned at one point. I would have been pissed to find out it wasn't real rosewood, because I swear that rosewood made a difference in sound (I also owned rosewood phonics). I also love lacquers, and if I had the choice between fake veneer and lacquer (okay actually synthetic poly), I'd go with lacquer. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:30 am 
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I remember an event where a friend of mine (mechanic) talked to his customer about his Peugeot 207. He said "well what could you expect from a car made in China"?!? And indeed - 80% of the parts inside had "made in China" stamped on them...
It's like getting a new SONY - only to find out it's assembled in Romania or Turkey...

Cliff is right - The motives, degree of involvement and in some cases, the personality of each constituent must be considered.

Everyone wants to get the truth about is product, but none of the manufacturers now tells it. They always go behind that "secret of manufacturing process" :(
It's how modern products are made and sold...

My stand (still) is that if You pay top $$$, the company selling the product needs to be 100% straight with You. But - that happens very little in reality.
And also - I'm firstly drawn by the sound, and degree of craftsmanship, and then after the wood and visual effect...

What we have in SONOR is a home made product made from selected wood, and built with higher standards and near perfection. And on top of it all, we still get dedication from the people working there. We saw the process, we saw the wood/veneer sheets, we saw the sanding and drilling, we saw all the hardware bits assembled in Germany. We just didn't get the information who made those. I remember SONOR guys giving a plain "the hardware parts are made for us in another factory".
Those kind of answers leave room for speculation. The simple fact that SONOR split production between China and Germany leaves room for speculation.

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Let the good drums roll!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:34 am 
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Wow,nice points all. We live in a global market now, and everyone just has to get used to it, painful as that is for some folks. Most of the materials I use now for work come from all over the place, and most of the fixtures and tooling from China. It sucks. Things break constantly, parts missing. My new favorite phrase when something goes wrong is" China doesn't really care about us", neither does Home Depot.

The fact that Sonor can still operate in Germany is amazing and awesome. They make great drums. The veneer thing really sucks for those who thought they were getting their drums in a genuine veneer. I saw a piece of slab bubinga bartop yesterday at the yard. It cost as much as a set of SQ2's. I wish they would man up and straighten this our officially so we can all be pissed then move on.

Till then I will dig out my old Gretsch kit. They don't sound nearly as good and the wrap is peeling but they were made in brooklyn in a sweatshop by underpaid immigrants....


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:58 am 
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K...momma's not around.

The veneer thing doesn't bother me nearly as much as a forum who's administrator might as well be an employee of the company it represents. Any forum under such pretense could only lead to what that one has become.

That forum used to be made up solely of people that loved a great product when that product was great. When the product was the best of the best, unique in design, in sound and visual aesthetics. Sonor still makes a great product...but Sonor is now not the only one.

I will always have a problem with brand loyalty when that loyalty leads to tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is just simply not being honest with one's self.
I love Audi's. But there are now plenty doing the audi thing without the price tag.

The arguments there are between those few purists that are left and the loyalist that are now the majority. And plenty of folks who just plain have nothing better to do. "As goes the drums, so goes the forum".

The veneer thing. I am willing to bet I am at lease in the top ten as far as amount of money spent on SQ2's. That's a generous number. I bet I'm top 5 or possibly even "the top". But that's not important.
That money would not have been spent on fake veneer. Yes I was quite happy with those drums......THEN. Now I am not. If I still owned them I would be having serious problems with Sonor right now. A worse scenario for me is I sold them. As far as I can tell, that owner still has them. In fact, a few owners. There is nothing stopping them from pursuing me as the seller. And I wouldn't blame them one bit. In turn, I would have to pursue Sonor on the matter.

Honestly...from all the garble that is going on, I am still not sure if my Scandinavian birch was real or not. My hypothesis is that they were not. And as of right now, there's really no way to find out. One would think he could go to a Sonor forum and get the answer. That's comical.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:10 am 
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You're right Kelly - that place mutated into something it wasn't suppose to...

There's hardly any info if You start looking...

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Let the good drums roll!!!


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