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 Post subject: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:50 am 
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A highly controllable bass drum is one reason I like the Designer 18” kick; the other is it's very sweet tone. A consequence of the arrival of the 18 Gretsch and 20 Drop has been a dissatisfaction with the power available from the Designer when it’s wanted, in an acoustic environment (not miked). This has led to a process of examining the point of strike of the beater, and whether an on center strike delivers more and better sound than an off center strike.

Since I have a Signature pedal, and since Sig pedals are vertically adjustable (which the Giant Step is not), I have been running some comparisons on my kicks.

With three bass drums, two 18” and one 20” I have an interesting field to test beater heights on. And since the beater rod on both is adjustable, there’s a fair section of the head I’ve been able to reach.

Neither pedal allows a dead center hit; both have an offset beater. The Sig is offset by design, the GS is offset by virtue of being a double pedal and thus by necessity. Even so, the Sig’s stroke comes fairly close, being out by about 1.6cm, or .65”.

What I think I am hearing, on all three drums, is more resonance when the beater strikes off-center, in a range between 1/3 - 2/3 of the distance between dead center and the rim. The Designer gives more of its sweet tone, and the Gretsch just gives more of whatever it is that it’s selling. Increasing the length of shaft in that range gives more volume, naturally, but does not seem to affect tone much.

Still, since I can't hit perfect center with either pedal, the jury is marginally out, but the closer to center the beater strikes, the less... resonant the sound.

Any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:49 am 
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What effect does tuning have on the project?

My guess is that it is a similar effect to tympani...


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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:08 am 
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A couple of thoughts:

• Is the Designer’s lack of volume relative or absolute? In other words, is it lacking volume you need, or just less than the Gretsch 18”?
• Is your answer to the above based upon what you are hearing from behind the kit, or from what is heard out front?
• Is the drum truly more ‘resonant’ when struck out of center, or merely producing more harmonics/overtones. Is the decay truly longer, or do you hear the harmonics better than you hear the fundamental note produced from the center strike?

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Last edited by cliff on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:31 pm 
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latzanimal wrote:
What effect does tuning have on the project?

My guess is that it is a similar effect to tympani...

Interesting question, Dave. I haven't been monkeying with tuning much, but the little I have just seems to bring the tone up and down, with of course the greater clarity with both heads at the same pitch.

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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:54 pm 
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cliff wrote:
A couple of thoughts:

• Is the Designer’s lack of volume relative or absolute? In other words, is it lacking volume you need it, or just less than the Gretsch 18”?
• Is your answer to the above based upon what you are hearing from behind the kit, or from what is heard out front?
• Is the drum truly more ‘resonant’ when struck out of center, or merely producing more harmonics/overtones. Is the decay truly longer, or do you hear the harmonics better then you hear the fundamental note produced from the center strike?


Both. Though clearly the presence of the Gretsch and the Drop created demand where it hadn't been previously.

Where I'm sitting, but also in feedback from the room.

Yes. My impression is that the fundamental is stronger and more durable when struck off center, with a subtle tonal shift as the beater moves outward. Like tympani as Dave suggested. A bit more horn, or cut, played away from the bullseye. But it seems to encourage the fundamental along with it.

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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:51 pm 
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It might be time to put that anemic brown kit out, and let the Gretsch kit rule the roost. :o :?

I’ll come get them if you want, and if I am able to get that little kick drum to speak up a little more, then I will start working on training it to walk back to your house…

…but I won’t let it go until I am confident it will succeed on both counts. ;)

Kidding aside (unless you want me to come get them), I guess I would be interested in hearing the result of putting it to the same standard that you usually apply, ultimately: Have you had / will you have a volume problem with the Designer 18” in any un-mic’d musical situation that you would actually use this kit in?

None of my cars are going to haul a lot of stuff, my truck isn’t going to get me anywhere very quickly, and the teardrop 20” is not an 18”.

Dunno what to say about the comparison to the Gretsch 18”; never had the chance to A/B with one. Maybe you better let me pick that one up, too, while I am there. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:42 pm 
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cliff wrote:
It might be time to put that anemic brown kit out, and let the Gretsch kit rule the roost. :o :?

I’ll come get them if you want, and if I am able to get that little kick drum to speak up a little more, then I will start working on training it to walk back to your house…

…but I won’t let it go until I am confident it will succeed on both counts. ;)


Yeah, you and the 18" horse you rode in on. :P

cliff wrote:
... I guess I would be interested in hearing the result of putting it to the same standard that you usually apply, ultimately: Have you had / will you have a volume problem with the Designer 18” in any un-mic’d musical situation that you would actually use this kit in?



I haven't just yet got done talking about it. I put a coated Ambassador on the batter, backed up by a felt strip. The volume problem disappeared, though it is not as loud as the 20" Drop.... but of course, as you said, is a 20" drop (makes me really want to try an 18" drop). Allowing the beater to extend high up the face of the drum, and muting the Amb with felts enables a solid SMACK!.

To answer your question, I like having that ability even though I wouldn't use it excepting for emphasis. The rolling tones off that kick are generally precisely where I want them to be. In fact, in the church environment I last used them, I'd probably haul the EQ4 back out to ensure proper muting.

One of the oddest events in this expedition has been the discovery that the Sig pedal is as fast as the GS pedals - or at least it is as fast as I think I am on the GS pedal, though I have no way to prove it. What is slow on the Sig is start up. Even though I can play the same swift figures, I tend to lag on the start up with the Sig. It's like a train that's never on time; all the cars arrive promptly one behind the other, but the engine gets to the station late. Making that pedal start fast requires too much extra effort. The 600 and GS are easier to tame.

cliff wrote:

Dunno what to say about the comparison to the Gretsch 18”; never had the chance to A/B with one. Maybe you better let me pick that one up, too, while I am there. ;)


It's almost worth handing over the Designer to have you come up, but I don't want to complicate your life with too many of the same thing. But if you come up, we can A/B the two kits in a number of sonic environments that should settle all questions about them. Oh, wait a minute. I can already do that. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, though, it would be a great experience to have a "group together" with our kits. And I have enough here for four people, just bring your own cymbals and thrones.

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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:52 am 
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My stand is this:

I think older drums (made in the 50s 60s and early 70s) lack volume. It's all got to do with the shell, and the way they were built.
Drums are always built to cover other drums while playing. So, since the music started using electric guitars with AMP walls :lol: , drums started getting louder and louder...

The era of a jazz trio that plays in front of one microphone got lost, forever... :(

Gregory, if Your Gretsch kit is from the 80s or later, it will sound louder than the Teardrop no matter what You do.

I also noticed that a DESIGNER has an EQd sound. Distinct, like on a record. A GRETSCH set is "all over the place" when it comes to sound (very open).
That might also be the reason why the Designer tone is "pre-produced" but also lower in volume... :geek:

Great topic... :)

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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:56 am 
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Gregory wrote:
...One of the oddest events in this expedition has been the discovery that the Sig pedal is as fast as the GS pedals - or at least it is as fast as I think I am on the GS pedal, though I have no way to prove it. What is slow on the Sig is start up. Even though I can play the same swift figures, I tend to lag on the start up with the Sig. It's like a train that's never on time; all the cars arrive promptly one behind the other, but the engine gets to the station late. Making that pedal start fast requires too much extra effort. The 600 and GS are easier to tame.

I wonder if this is the reason that the GS is what it is interms of a tall frame, with the beater radius from the axle being shorter. (Am I correct with that statement, Greg?)

If yes, then perhaps the intent was to strike a larger kick drum in the same place with the GS as with the Signature pedal, but to shorten the radius to the beater mass, hence reduce the initial lag you mention.

Gregory wrote:
...Seriously, though, it would be a great experience to have a "group together" with our kits. And I have enough here for four people, just bring your own cymbals and thrones.

I am still hearing the call for 'Drummer's Exile in Wisconsin', if enough were genuinely interested, and willing to make a real commitment to attend. If we go even half a dozen guys from here to show up and exchange ideas for a few days, it would be very interesting amd worthwhile.

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 Post subject: Re: KICK STRIKE
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Greg,

It seems that most of my points have been covered by others; however, I will confess to finding a "sweeter" sound when I strike any (properly tuned) drum slightly off-center. It seems to add a little more warmth and remove some of the punch. With that said, it does depend on the music you are complimenting and how those interact...I usually try to keep things punchy during my rock gigs and warm/round for my jazz or blues projects.

Gregory wrote:
One of the oddest events in this expedition has been the discovery that the Sig pedal is as fast as the GS pedals - or at least it is as fast as I think I am on the GS pedal, though I have no way to prove it. What is slow on the Sig is start up.


Also, what type of beaters are you using on your pedals?

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Designer Maple Light (Bubinga) 8,10,12,14,16, 22 kick
Force Custom (Bee-Bop Jazz) 12,14, 18 kick
Remo Roto Tom (Chrome) 14, 16
Snare HLD 588 Signature


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