On drums...

I agree with Justin and latzanimal. In a symphonic setting, larger drums such as a concert bass drums or timps have a sweet spot off center. For timpani, this is obviously much closer to the rim. It could be half the distance to center for a bass drum. The faster and more staccato a sound the piece calls for, the closer to center is the best place to strike, as there is a dead, almost wave canceling effect which allows for a heightened perception of attack.

The other factor which I don't think has been mentioned is that not all drums "sing" at the same frequency. After heads and beaters and muffling strips and pillows have been experimented with ad nauseum, some drums need to come up or down from our preferred tuning in order to sing in their range. I assume that the heads, shell design, dimensions, material and number of lugs enter into the whole mix somehow. It is a tedious process, but well worth the effort.

Goki's observations are also great. There was a time when kick's weren't expected or designed to sound like cannons.

Just my two cents.

Roland

[quote="cliff"]
I wonder if this is the reason that the GS is what it is interms of a tall frame, with the beater radius from the axle being shorter. (Am I correct with that statement, Greg?)

If yes, then perhaps the intent was to strike a larger kick drum in the same place with the GS as with the Signature pedal, but to shorten the radius to the beater mass, hence reduce the initial lag you mention.

The GS beater axel is roughly set at the upper position of the SIg (which for all its multiplicity of threaded holes really has but two positions!). The lower position is about 6.75" off the floor. GS is set an inch higher, at 7.75", which is minimally taller than the Sig at upper setting.

Beater shaft on the Sig is roughly an inch longer, but the clamp is at axel point, whereas the GS clamp is almost two inches above the axel, so a net gain in beater length for the GS.

Reductions in rotating mass are handled in materials and design: I'm guessing the GS won't stand up to a nuclear blast. In addition to the standard GS beaters, I also have the felt beater for GS, and even that is considerably lighter than the Sig variety.

Using any GS beater in the Sig speeds the action up, but all that chromed steel is still provides a lot of inertia.

Did I answer the question?

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Gregory

As I said, more "horn" off center.

Beaters are the standard GS two sided (felt and... rubber? or hard plastic), and the solid block felts. I'm using them interchangeably on both pedals.

Perhaps the reason for this discussion should be mentioned, an oversight of mine. I am trying to decide whether to persist using the GS pedal on the 18 kicks, and am isolating as much as possible the variables set up by the shell and head variations.

Cliff makes a strong argument for center placement of the beater, and I have read some supporting opinion to that point of view. Equally, I have read opinion arguing the opposite, that off center strike is more resonant, and so I set about to discover the values of each, and to try to understand at the same time how to get the most from the Designer 18 kick.

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Gregory

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Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

I remain impressed and grateful for the work everyone is putting into his answers! One of the great things about a forum is shared experience to be digested.

Before rock n roll and amplification got its death grip on instrument production (and a lot of other things, too, like stereo systems), and before drums and drumheads were designed to sound like recorded drums, the live sound was more active, I'd argue. Neatly packaged sound bites that studios could handle were not invented yet, and drummers had to exercise far more diligence and restraint than a later issue drummer whose kit was firmly sealed in Pinstripes.

To wit, my 20" Teardrop bass. That thing can fill the out-of-doors. With an EQ4 batter and FIberskyn Amb reso, it begins with a pronounced attack, then proceeds to build a round resonant tone, pronounced BuwWOOOWww. Beautiful. By comparison, the Designer 18" is much softer in attack, with a pleasing trailing note, like BOoooomm.

Cliff, just saw your post and am absorbing it.

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Gregory

The term "most" appears to be ambiguous. If it means "less" overtones or harmonics are involved in a center hit, I'm willing to be persuaded. But if it means "more" fundamental tone, or greater volume, is created by a dead center than off-center hit, then I'm not so sure.

You certainly have put your finger on the singular problem of the bass drum; a specific hit point. Generally that hasn't seemed much of a problem, although I see there are some folks out there using a battery of different size kicks to compensate.

***


ps. Again, this is all about not-miked kicks. With a mic, live or recorded, all sorts of things are possible.

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Gregory

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Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

Yes, we are on the same page on terms.

Now, as to the character and quality of the tone, I am willing to trust my senses to evaluate the way in which the strike is mixing with the kit from my vantage point as drummer, as long as reasonably schooled ears hear the same thing in the room. Scientific instruments are good for isolating empirical reality, but not so good at rendering human response. Which is why the Sonor catalogs picturing scientists in white lab coats in acoustically controlled rooms cause us to chuckle. I guess it is not so much a question of empirical evidence as it is one of perception.

In this regard, we have both looked at the remarkable video of a center struck vs. off-center struck membrane, but does that tell the entire story? Certainly where my tympani are concerned, a center hit renders a sort of hard feel and muted tonality, as Roland says. Granted, it's a round bottomed bowl rather than a contained cylinder, but the bass drum reacts the same way, to my ear.

An interesting quote from concert bass instructions (http://www.kjos.com/band/band_news/band_news_bass.html); the "lifting" motion described corresponds to allowing the pedal complete freedom after the strike, getting the foot off even before the strike so that it can rebound cleanly and completely:

The optimum playing spot, for most occasions, is about halfway between the rim and center of the head. See the illustration below from the Standard of Excellence, Drums & Mallet Percussion Book 1, page 3 [I think we can all visualize it. ]. Playing in this manner will provide a low fundamental tone with definition. Avoid striking the drum directly in the center, because this will produce a very dead tone. Also, one should avoid striking too close to the rim, as the tone will not be deep enough. Bass drummers should be sure to always strike the drum with a lifting motion so that the sound is drawn out of the drum, rather than striking into the drumhead.

I realize this is not empirical evidence either, but I'm quoting it so I don't feel so alone with my argument.

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Gregory

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Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

That is certainly true; trying to make a Designer sound like a Gretsch, or vise versa is a lost cause, if not a ridiculous one... particularly inasmuch as I have both.

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Gregory