On drums...

Jeff,
lol I posted to back you up. I am in complete agreement. There is no doubt in my mind that is ALPI.
I wouldn't have dared to post an opinion, or a guess.
But you are the only one there that follows some kind of logic.

Trust me, before those drums showed up, there was ONE KNOWN 6" Signature Ebony tom. My friend owned it and still has it. It looks nothing like these drums. Back then he was offered thousands for it and wouldn't sell it.
I was the one to put gaskets on at least 3 of them. Sonor didn't provide those. But I had a huge stash.

So much for my expertise. I would not have guessed from the photos that it was ebauxny, and I told Jeff I was sure they were real. Suckered by the rauxswood in photographs, too.

Kelly, you're not going to tell me that the scandi and binga toms were also ALPI?

_________________
Gregory

Who knew that veneer would have to be grouped together with religion and politics on the museum?

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Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

The Bubinga was real

Thankyou so much, Kel.
I was so sure, as they seemed to be blatantly obvious to me, then I was beginning to doubt myself.
I remember that pic of the 4 toms. Are you suggesting the Skandi may be manufactured? That would make for an interesting conversation on the museum.

I'm with Gregory on the Rosewood. It looks absolutely fantastic in pics, but in real life it is so flat and lifeless. It doe's, like all Alpi products have little pores right thru it that under inspection is probably the only thing that makes this 'real wood veneer' look anything like real wood.

Thanks Again,

Cheers

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Jeff
Gots ta luv da Beech
Australia

Yes, I am suggesting the Scandi was manufactured. I picked that one up from the same source about the same time.

I got those drums because at the time I had a Ebony and Bubinga kit. I was in the process of getting a huge double kick
Signature Scandinavian kit from Magic drum in Germany. That deal fell through. He was impossible to deal with.
Do you remember Magic drum? That was the original go to place for all the rare Signature stuff. I don't know if he is still around. He said he was getting out of the business. His name was Obert.


Jeff, looking for SClass Pro orphans, definitely an 8 tom, you see any over there let me know buddy.

The mystery, or lack thereof, is intensifying. Kelly, explain this to me. You had some toms made by Sonor. Did they tell you they were using engineered wood or have you surmised that they were engineered in retrospect? I don't recall discussing this.

The color of the scandi is easily put down to using an acrylic finish - which is clear - instead of lacquer, which has an amber cast. So was it something about the wood that clues you in? Grained maple looks like ALPI's attempt at sugar pops in birch, but I don't think scandi would be an easy duplication. Too much specificity in small spots.

I guess my question is: How do you know?

Bubinga and Scandi would both be difficult to counterfeit, I'd think. Studying the method of reproduction, it's easy to understand how ebauxny and rauxswood - anything with long stripes - can come close, but once you have seen the bauxbinga, it looks like an old rubber ball compared to the real stuff.

If I were to base my conclusions on the difference between bubinga veneers on my Sigs and Designers, I would assume the Designers were fake. The Desigs are physically flatter, less wood like, and don't have as much interest or refraction. On stage, under lights, the Sigs glowed. My Desigs don't do that. And yet there is no doubt in my mind that the Designer veneer is real bubinga. What had changed between the Sig and Desig eras was the way veneer manufacturers cut wood. Given the increasing pressure on the veneer market, manufacturers were getting better at slicing logs thinner, and thus were able to make more veneers from the same log.

Edit:Kelly and I were just taIking. He brought up the fact that one of his Signature Scandi drums looked like it was raw lumber. I know what he means. In fact, I have never seen veneers except on old furniture that were cut at least an 18th inch thick, with saws, that resembled the way the bubinga on my Sigs looked. It was lumpy, with knots, dips, and gaps, and it was not sanded flat. The surface showed at least a 32nd of an inch variation, so the veneer had to have been a good deal thicker than that. The two bubinga veneers were 2 of the 12 Sig plies, so it follows that they were 1 mm thick on average, or a 24th inch.

Modern veneers are cut between .5 (1/50") and .7 mm. There's no way Designers or SQzzz are going to look like lumber, and that would apply to 1990s veneered toms as well.

I'll reserve judgment until I see one of those toms in front of me.

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Gregory

Grained Maple is definitely Alpi's version of Skandi.
I have a designer color chart with Grained Maple, but at that stage Sonor was calling the finish "Ice Birch Honey".

I think the inconsistency of genuine Skandi would be extremely difficult to imitate accurately, or in a convincing manner.

Sonor apparently has a few different veneer suppliers. I still believe that the Skandi and American Walnut are genuine, apparently the Silky Oak is genuine, but there is an image on the Alpi website that looks exactly like it.

EDIT / Nearly forgot, the designer color chart has Skandi as well as Ice Birch Honey.

No worries, Kel, I'll keep an eye out for Pro's for ya. What color/s?

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Jeff
Gots ta luv da Beech
Australia

Agreed.

"Ice Birch Honey" The Scandi Imposter.

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Gregory

Jeff, any color. My kit is Grained Maple but I don't care, I'll probably veneer it at some point. Crap is fake anyway. ha

Greg, sorry about phone cutting off, I have not figured out this new house yet. Far as I can tell I have to be outside to talk to anyone.

A few points we tried to discuss...
No, I am not sure that the Scandi is Alpi. I sincerely apologize for that.
The reason I got into the conversation was to prove there were toms made at a much later date. I've gotten sucked into the real or fake debate.
I cannot promise the Ebony or Scandi is Alpi. The Ebony looks it to me. I like Jeffs logic about the time frame of Sonor switching.
I did mention to you that I owned quite a bit of the early Ebony Sig's and those toms (later made), to me at least, were, well....designed.
The Scandi I guessed and probably made a bad call. Remember though, I was thinking WHEN the drums were made, not WHAT they were made of.
I guessed at the Scandi for this reason: About 4 or 5 years later Sonor made me two 8 x 14 Signature shells in Scandinavian Birch, one Heavy version, one lite version.
Those two drums looked identical and matched me 6" tom EXACTLY. It just screamed 90's veneer, very designer looking, zero thrills.
This is what made me so nervous about ordering SQ2's in Scandi. I took a big chance but thankfully they were night and day.
I'm sure I cleared nothing up for you. You are a man on a mission.
By the way, those two Scandi 8 x 14's were the last Signature shells ever to be made. They actually held up taking the equipment down until these two drums were finished.
Another note, I was not the one who asked for the 6" drums. But I was asked by the good friend having them made, if I wanted any for myself.