On drums...

So here's the dilemma:

Right now I have Clear Emperor on top AND bottom of all of the toms (on my Hilite set). The sound is clear (plastic) fusion like.
What should I expect from a Coated Emperor on top and Clear Ambassador on bottom?!? Will I get a more jazzy sound?

Also, what to expect from Clear Emperors (top and bottom) on Gretsch Catalina bop set?!? If I change the heads on my Hilite - the logical solution would be for the old heads to go on the other kit..



I'm very interested in what you guys think about this...

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Goki - short from Goran

Let the good drums roll!!!

Greatest resonance = two heads of the same type, tuned to the same pitch. A thinner head reso will not, at least in theory, warm the sound.

With the same head top and bottom, you should be getting the most resonance you can from that particular head type. If you change the reso to Amb on the bottom, you will get less resonance and sustain, but the high pitched overtones will become more pronounced. If you change to clear Ambs top and bottom, you will get what I think you'd call a more jazzy sound, which is open and resonant. Because the Hilites are maple, I suspect the clear Ambs will be your ticket, but on the birch Classix, coated Ambs to and clear Ambs bottom are my ticket... just slightly more control. I haven't sprung for coated Amb resos, but I think I'd like that even more, given that more resonance will result.

As to switching heads from kit to kit, I have some questions with that. It's worth a try, but I have had medium luck. I think there is some likelihood that the head will have taken a set from the old shell and doesn't necessarily translate well to the new shell. I have no proof for that other than trouble tuning... and of course the old heads may have been worn too much already, so not a fair test.

Hope that's helpful, and other opinions should be studied...

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Gregory

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Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

Excellent Greg.
Would be very helpful to know what he is going after. I have plenty of Emp experience and Hilites.
I think the first thing I would do is take off the emp reso's and try clear ambs. The cool thing would be buy one or two ambs, batters are already on and it will give a feel of what way he wants to go for 20 bucks. I liked clear Emps on Hilites and I was using clear amb reso's.
I don't want to say more and detract from all the information in Greg's reply.

Drum Bible never addresses an Emperor weight reso except to say that its use is rare.
But it does say this about your other choices:

Emperor (type head) with medium weight single ply reso:

Focused initial stick attack, deep fat sound, sharp edged tone with clear head top and bottom. Sustain in the lower registers is prominent and deep when tuned low.
Traditional deep fat sound.
Stick response tends toward less bounce.
Popular recording choice when you want a very focused muted sound bordering on the dry side.
Works well for close mic situations and where the term punchy or articulate seem to be what you are after.

Ambassador (type head) with medium weight single ply reso :

Very resonant, high ring can be very prominent when clear reso is used, and even more so when clear batter is used.
Sound goes warm when coated versions are used, very good sustain, excellent stick response.
Coated on top w/clear reso produces warm, w/bright overtones.
This is what a large portion of jazz, country and light rock guys like.
Tuning can control ring easily.
Popular recording choice.
Coated provides a nice sibilance to the stick attack, while clear provides predominant midrange attack.

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Gregory

Thanks guys...

I'll try and explain in details:

I bought my Hilites with the Ambassador Coated batter/Clear reso combination. Frankly, I didn't like the sound very much.
Maybe it was because of the old SONOR reso heads, I don't know...

Then I got Coated Emperor batters - the sound improved, but it had more sustain, and I didn't like that.
I changed the reso heads to Clear Emperors (got a propack) and the sound was very good - the only problem, it was a bit choked.

Now, my brother was in the US and I asked for Coated Emps and Ambs, because:
1) Emperors CAN'T be found here.
2)Fusion Amb set is $20+$22.2+$24.5=$66.7
Just for the record - a pair of Vic Firth 5A is $14.

So, the bottom line - I'm after a warmer jazzy tone, but a bit more opened than my current tone. My drums sound fantastic now - like a top fusion set. The problems appear when I play jazz tunes. The attack is more present, and that "plastic" feeling is in the air...

So - what do you think?!? Should I go with this plan, or should I go with Coated Amb batter/reso. Honestly, I don't like that "all in the open" tone, and I fear that Coated Emp batter/reso would be too much...

Yes Greg - I know that fitting an old head on a different shell would be far from ideal, but when faced with limited otpions... Well, one does what he can. Currently, my Gretsch has the Coated Emps and Sonor resos from the Hilite - the sound is just as I like it...
Cliff - they are a lot thinner, so I think putting a Clear Emp would be too much. But I feel that my Coated Emps on the Catalina are slowly getting dull, so they need to be changed. The best option I can get is to somehow find another set of Coated Emps for cheap...

Opinions?!?

P.S. I would gladly apply for a green card... Just to buy decent drum gear...

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Goki - short from Goran

Let the good drums roll!!!

Goki, sound is so relative that sometimes these things are just difficult to talk about. For instance, much has to do with how hard the drums are struck, or what our expectation is. When I had my Signatures, I played them with Pinstripes and what must have been Amb weight resos, and I kept them tuned with batter as low as possible, resos about a fourth up. And then, if there was still too much ring, I'd start loosening lugs on the batter till the ring disappeared.

So when I started mounting single ply head batters, the sound appalled me. Too much presence and resonance. So back to Pins I went.

I can no longer play that kind of sound. Seems like hitting a box. But what happened between then and now is that I strike the drums much more lightly, and at the same time my expectation has changed.

Okay, so that's me and not you. But the issue of relativity of sound is still pertinent.

When you read the exert posted from the Drum Bible, how do you react to those descriptions? Anything resonate (!) with you?

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Gregory

I like lots of resonance from my toms. In general, coated Ambs are my default heads, aside from calf on Gretsch 3 ply, which is the shit.

Phonics (thick shell/stamped steel hoops): 12x8; coated Ambs on both sides tuned fairly high. 14x14; Fiberskyn top, coated Amb bottom.

Premiers (thin-shell/die-cast, non ferrous hoops): 12x8; coated Ambs on both sides tuned fairly high. 14x14 ; coated Amb top, clear Amb bottom, with a 6" strip of electrical tape to slightly dampen this drum's long resonance.

I find that head selection and tuning has more effect on timbre than does the quite different structural/material make up of Premiers as opposed to Phonics.

I'm going for what would be considered the 60s 'jazz sound'.

I think Greg is right that coated = more resonance.
I'd recommend Emperors on top only if you have to hit harder for more volume.

Ron

Since the plan is two stepped, step 1) being replace the resos with Ambs. Can't you go ahead with that, and hold off on step 2) replacing the batters until you have discovered the effect of 1) ?

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Gregory

That's what I said....go ahead with step one. That just seems to be a clear step in the right direction. Emps top and bottom just seems like a definite no. And I like Emps.