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cliff
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:05 pm 
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As some of you suspected, there is a new kit in the family! Sully made me a very decent deal on the walnut roots Designers, and the shells all arrived safely on Friday. Tom mounting hardware and floor tom legs are still en route, so I can’t set it up yet.

This kit is almost identical sizes to my bubinga Designers:

Walnut Roots size & tuning:

• 10x9 RT -- Eb
• 12x10 RT -- Bb
• 14x14 FT -- G
• 16x16 FT -- Eb
• 18x16 kick

Bubinga size & tuning:

• 8x8 RT -- G
• 12x10 RT -- C
• 14x14 FT -- G
• 16x16 FT -- C
• 18x16 kick

Since the smallest tom doesn’t want to tune high enough to let me use the same philosophy as with the bubingas, I got to re-think the approach on the new kit.

With clear G1’s (batter & resonant) on all the toms, the mid-point between just beginning to resonate and choking is about 74 on my DD (just for reference), and that is where each drum seems the most ‘live’. From there I looked for a major scale that they would fit into with the least amount of tweaking. As you can see, it ended up being Eb, with the drums tuned 1-3-5-8 from bottom to top vs. the bubinga at 1-5-8-13. This is completely experimental for me, but is does explain why I have always used 8/12/14/16 instead of 10/12/14/16 – I like each drum to be either a 5th, octave, or 4th (by inversion) of every other drum, and I don’t know how this closer grouping, without the harmonic relationships that I am used to, is going to work out.

As soon as the rest of the hardware arrives, I’ll get to find out.

Just in case, anyone got an 8x8 walnut roots maple light Designer to for sale, or trade for a 10x9?

p.s. Goki, how are you tuning your 10/12/14 set-up?

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Cliff

River City Trio

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Goki
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:38 am 
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Location: Skopje, Republic Of Macedonia
First of all Cliff - CONGRATULATIONS on the latest Designer purchase. We're all waiting for pics, You know that right?!?

Now, as far as tuning is concerned Cliff - I like lower tunings for the 12" and 14"ft, and a higher tuning for the 10".
Unfortunately, I haven't checked the latest tuning on my S Classix, since the keyboard is back at the apartment, but I think I still maintain the idea that the 10" and 14" should be an octave apart, and usually the 12" is a 5th of the 14". I remember using C-G-C in the old days...

Somehow, on the S Classix I used ear-tuning and DrumDial, and forgot to check the notes (somehow my piano playing lessons never started... :lol: )

But, next rehearsal, I'll borrow the tuner from my guitarist and check to see what my setting actually is... ;)


Congratulations once again Cliff - You and Gregory have fantastic sets... Well done, my friend, well done!!!

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Goki - short from Goran :)

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cliff
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:47 am 
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Hey Goki,

C/G/C from the bottom up is exactly the 16/14/12/8 bubinga Designers, with the top 8 removed. That is what I’ll do if this set of intervals does not work out.

Getting down to C on the 16 FT requires pretty low head tension; I am surprised that you can get down there with a 14 FT.

Thanks for the info; photos as soon as possible.

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River City Trio

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Justin
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Location: SE Michigan
Quick question:

I've heard that tuning the resonant head up real high (around a 5th higher than the batter head) will give a "livelier" sound but I have yet to attempt it on anything but the snare drum (which seems to respond well to this adjustment).

I've been told that this is a "Bonham-style" tuning that John's drum tech, Jeff Olchetree, used frequently.

Does anyone use this type of tuning? If so, what difference in notes do you use for each head?

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Justin

Designer Maple Light (Bubinga) 8,10,12,14,16, 22 kick
Force Custom (Bee-Bop Jazz) 12,14, 18 kick
Remo Roto Tom (Chrome) 14, 16
Snare HLD 588 Signature
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Kelly
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:43 pm 
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Oh boy you did it now. As soon as Cliff sees this you're gonna get an ear full. :lol:
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cliff
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Hey Kelly,

Funny thing is that I had replied already, but it apparently went into etherland. What can I say; the man knows me.

Justin,

My observation has been that the most 'open' sound results from batter and resonant heads of equal weight/thickness, tensioned evenly. No deadening effects from getting air columns colliding with each other at different rates of speed, by bouncing off heads moving at disparate frequencies, etc.

Different logic for snare, since there (i) is an inherent head mismatch, and, (ii) the snare head is artifically restricted anyway.

On snares, I tune the batter for stick response, and the snare side for pitch and snare response.

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River City Trio

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Last edited by cliff on Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Justin
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:16 am 
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Thanks, Cliff!

For sh*ts and giggles last night, I tuned up each of the Ludwig toms' resonant heads to get an ear on the situation.

I found that the higher I tuned each resonant head, the more "choked (?)" the drum started to sound. As of now, I'm getting the best sound at about a 1/4 - 1/2 lug turn past the head's lowest possible pitch...adds some brighter character without the note sounding deadened.

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Justin

Designer Maple Light (Bubinga) 8,10,12,14,16, 22 kick
Force Custom (Bee-Bop Jazz) 12,14, 18 kick
Remo Roto Tom (Chrome) 14, 16
Snare HLD 588 Signature
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stevesmithfan
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:55 pm 
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Cliff, with different weighted heads, such as a 2 ply on top. Do you think the most open sound would be best achieved with the bottom head (single ply) tuned a little higher than the batter (2 ply)?
I'd love to know your opinion.
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cliff
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Hey Greg,

I think the most open sound occurs if the two heads vibrate at the same rate (same pitch), and optimally, if they resonate at that pitch for an equal length of time (equal decay rate).

I think that the thicker head will vibrate more slowly than the thinner head, hence the thicker head would need to be 'tensioned' higher to be at the same pitch as the bottom head.

A thinner head reso that 'tensioned' or 'pitched' higher than the thicker batter would seem to not be the optimal situation.

This logic seemed to prove out when I was using 12 mil G Plus batter and 10 mil G1 resonant heads on my Signatures where tuning both heads to equal pitch was the most open (e.g drum dial 76 batter / 74 Resonant on a 14" floor tom), but not as open as evenly pitched and tensioned G1's. top and bottom.

Hope I stated this clearly.

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River City Trio

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Gregory
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:09 pm 
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I am interested in understanding other references. We've got "most open" down fairly pat, but the options are perplexing. Why the dissimilar heads if looking for open? What is the desirable characteristic that the dissimilar heads introduce? I would have thought that quicker decay might have been one of the features.

The variables (I come up with) are: length of decay, purity or complication of tone, attack, punch, and note. Those variables play out similarly on any drum, but the effect on dissimilar drums can be very different.

On my Gretsch, I love the funky characteristic of wide open bass with Amb weight heads, tuned to the same note. An EQ4 on the batter makes an okay tone, but loses my interest. Exactly the opposite is true on the Designer. Open Amb heads, tuned to the same note, are rather distressing to the ear. Hitting that drum on center helps a lot by cutting all the harmonics (but given the combination of GS pedal on 18" kicks, I don't have that capability). Hitting the Gretsch on center makes some - but not nearly as much- difference, but the open tone when hit outside the center is nevertheless very pleasing. The reason I began to experiment with the Designer kick is a search for loud punch that I can get from the Gretsch. And yes, I can get greater volume from the Designer with open tuning, but lose the pleasing tone. The Designer has less attack than the Gretsch as well, so I have a hard time hearing the bass articulate in fast passages.

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