On drums...

Oddly enough, I have never bought a drum because a hero played it. My current Gretsch kit is the closest I've come to that, but the hero association was satisfied after the fact, rather than being a motivator.

I have no idea what Gretsch's drum philosophy is, but I love the sound. I was just playing my kit an hour ago in the empty church, and it is so very satisfying. Not because it sounds like I expect a kit to, and not because I hear that sound in my head, but rather because it does all kinds of things I don't expect it to, and because it steps out of the sounds in my head. It also happens to feel good, literally, to play.

I am either not smart enough or not curious enough - and certainly not educated enough - to make choices based upon anything other than the way drums look (first) and sound (second). But I am fairly sure that I don't want drums that I understand.

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Gregory

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Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

Every 12 I have is x8. Not by design. I liked the 12x10 Designer, although it required restraint. The x8 has more top, and is less prone to woof. That suits me fine. The Gretsch 12x8 is perfect Gretsch; I can't imagine wanting to change it. The teardrop is x8 because every 12 in the 60's was x8.

Kelly certainly has a point; most drum companies are much like fashion houses: always chasing the latest trend. If the trend is maple, make maple. If it's square racks, make 'em square. I'm sure that's as true for instruments as it is for automobiles. Progress is made by conforming, then developing; it is a repeating behavior. Music is the same way. And sure enough, old becomes new again, but now reconfigured to match current expectation and demand.

Still want to know what the rubber things are supposed to be doing, aside from decomposing over time:? I mean, it would help if the comparison had been done with heads, so the effect on the shell was not the entire story. Oh well, since I have never understood the purpose to start with, and since I like the sound of the Designers as they are, I'm not losing sleep over it. Probably what Kelly said; control for miked performance.

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Gregory

I don't have time to post the pic's, maybe tonight when I get in, but when I look at what Sonor did with the Designers and then look at what Premier did with the Signia's, (I hold these two as the top level kits of each manufacturer in a similar era) I clearly see why Signia's resonate significantly more than Designers.
At first glance, the drums look identical (a Signia drum and a long lug Designer).
A closer look reveals the completely different type of ISO being used. In size, on the lug mounts, and in design on the tom holder mount. Premier used no ISO mounts from holder to shell. It is attached to the rods of the lug mounts.
This is not to say one is better than the other, I love Designers, and not everyone desires all the resonance Signia's provide, it's just to point out the significance of this ISO stuff and the part it is playing. In my opinion anyway.

It is my intentions, someday. I also want to put an inner ply of veneer with vertical grain in one of my segmented shells to see the effect. Part of the attraction to stave shells, is the lower pitch/more bottom end. Staves, by nature, are not near as structurally sound as a ply or segment shell. So if the vertical inner ply does what I think it would, it would open a bunch of new possibilities...

However, I am certain that most drummers and audience members do not know the difference, are able to hear a difference, or care...

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Cliff

River City Trio

What if we did all have the same opinions?

I suspect that drummers can hear the differences. I don't think we know why the differences exist, except by hearsay.

Whether we care or not is another matter. Since a perfect drum would be a non-existant drum, it must be the imperfections that give character. I am drawn to the different, even unique character in some drums.

I generally prefer deeper snares. But I love my x5 Gretsch, when used with the Gretsch kit (haven't tried it with Designers, so don't know if it would make the transition). What fascinates me is that it works with an Emperor snare side head under a Fiberskyn Diplomat batter, which goes against everything I thought I knew about snares.

What am I trying to say?

I don't think I understand how drums work. I'm not sure drum builders do, either. What they do know, hopefully, is what works for them; a standard can be created around that particularity. Sonor has done that, Gretsch has done that. Can't speak to the others, but I assume it to be true of any company that takes pride in its output. (One of my problems with SQ is that it lacks this particularity, but that's another story.)

Stuffing the shells with rubber bits is a very odd solution to a problem I haven't figured out what it is. What makes it odd is that the rubber decomposes and, particularly if your drums are German, the cost of replacing them is stupid, should you happen to need them before they become obsolete. But okay, if in the pursuit of perfection it becomes necessary to create bonds that dissolve by the Laws of Nature, then I suppose we can put up with it. But I really want to know how my life is going to be improved before I'm eager to accept the penalty.

Perhpas APS is just a continuation of the super heavy shell. "Now we can use rubber to control shell resonance, without resorting to weight and wood." When Sonor talks about projection and resonance, perhaps what they've meant, since the onset of Signatures, is isolating the head from the shell, thereby achieving a more fundamental tone.

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Gregory

Part of the structural problems with a stave is that it's one piece of wood the entire length of the drum. At the same time, this one piece of wood multiplied by the number of staves, uses less than 1/4 of the glue of a plywood shell. Because you are relying on the one piece of wood to maintain and endure all impacts, etc., it is not a good choice for constant movement/road use, case or no case. However, a stave, like a 1 piece steambent, uses very little glue to inhibit the vibrations, producing a lower pitch.

The glue in any shell absorbs vibrations, effectively muting the shell. Since lower notes have longer sound waves, the lower notes of the shell are somewhat muted, while the higher pitch notes are more prominent. More glue, higher pitch. A plywood shell gets its strength from cross lamination, however, it raises the pitch. Sonor was able to somewhat counteract this by running the inner ply vertical.

I should say its not that stave shells are prone to breaking, but the chance for them to crack is greater. For someone who handles his own gear, I'm sure they would be fine.

I seemed to have jumped around a bit as i was interrupted by the kids, but I think I've explained my points.. more or less..

Gregory, as well as being blissfully ignorant about drums, I truly believe drummers can't hear a difference unless you point it out to them. Compare how many good sounding drums you've heard to the number of awful sounding kits. In my experience, the bad out number the good by far. At the same time, I'd like to think my ear is acute enough to hear a well tuned kit whether it is my preference of tuning or not. But I may also be an arrogant ass...

So might I, but I hope not.

I guess I don't know enough drummers to speak about "they." I think I understand the basic influence of birch, maple, and beech on a shell, all else being equal. There are qualities I expect from maple that I don't from birch. But I don't think that means that I would never like a birch kit, or that I would always like maple.

As to the number of awful sounding kits, I can't say with any assurance that what was disturbing wasn't just a matter of poor heads, poor tuning, or poor playing - and most likely all three. My ear can differentiate between agreeable and disagreeable sound; I can state that with assurance, since it is completely subjective.

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Gregory